Christology: Leadership for Mission (Chick Yuill)
Discussion Point #2
Chick identifies several points of transition that leading for mission will need to negotiate.
- from maintenance to mission
- from gated to integrated
- from invitation to incarnation
- from membership to discipleship
- from planning to preparedness
- from pews to participants
- from fortress to open house
- from separation to co-operation
- from rationality to spirituality
What points of agreement, disagreement?
Can you identify with the "Believe - Behave - Belong" // "Belong - Behave - Believe" line of thought?
posted by ETLnetwork at 6:44 AM
17 Comments:
Both your well made points identify that the world is a changing! Engaging with our communities, making Jesus known seems so much messier?
Perhaps there is importance in journeying with people as they discover faith - while being certain of the dangers of compromise.
Our experience has been that we have had some people come to church - they remained because they felt they belonged, the transformation in them has been gradual but certain. Perhaps if we had not given them that sense of belonging - that transformation into faith may not of happened.
However - certain areas of church life would not be open to them - but that wouldn't infringe on their sense of belonging.
Thanks for some well made and helpful observations
I read Deborah’s comments with interest .I agree with Chicks comments that we need be relevant to a changing World . I strongly believe that in many Churches we still expect people to believe and behave before they can join us. I recently was told off by one of my Church members ,because I did not challenge one of our Brownie leaders who is not a Christian, for using her text after the service was over on her phone. We all to often impose our standards on people who have little or no knowledge of Church. Many have never been to Junior Church, and no little of Church etiquette . However, I do not think that we can have a complete free for all in Church . There needs to be some structure if we are to communicate the message of God . Part of Christian maturity is to realise that we live in community , and that we can achieve a great deal if we work together . This will involve leadership and structure if we are to be mission focussed. I have been to a number of seeker friendly Churches with huge congregations. I have found that sometimes the Gospel message has been watered down to be inclusive with cool terminology such as everything being “awesome” and gimmicks to get peoples attention. I found some of these Churches just as cold to visitors as many traditional ones. Indeed I was speaking to one of the pastors from an enormous local youth style Church in my area and she said the difficulty she had was to encourage her young people to see themselves as part of the larger Church in the community . New Churches can become just as entrenched in their own rituals as old ones. All Churches need to develop Disciples from their members.
Chris Hall
i agree with what Chick Yuill said that nowadays we need to 'belong, believe behave'. I would say this was the case for my own journey. Being brought up as a non Christian and attending the army for the first time at my daughters dedication i needed first to feel i belonged and that people were welcoming and friendly before i ever would have believed anything they had to say!
We do live in a world today where people do not have the religious instruction from parents so it is vital that if we are to be mission orientated we need to make them feel loved, wanted and accepted before we can ever hope to bring the gospel to them.
In my corps experience i would say that many who were brought up through the army experience would say they believe and then behave only in order to belong and that does not always mean that God has touched their hearts and lives in such a way that makes their Christian experience real.
i do agree with Chick that we need to be a changing church moving on in this postmodern world and reaching people with the gospel in new ways that bring people into a living relationship with Jesus.
I do not see any of Chick Yuills points as watering down the Gospel message but giving a blueprint for understanding more realistically this fast moving society. We are living in a transience culture, which also affects the churches. Deborah, Chris, and MIP speak of the changing world, and Carol B affirms the positive reaction to firstly belonging to the church. Yet, I wonder how easy it is for some searching people to get through some doors?
Specifically looking at TSA we must ask ourselves how often a corps ‘is gated’, offering only a superficial level of welcome (and that is when someone can get past the sea of blue!). When we first started attending TSA at a time when a revival was happening, there was a decision made that some soldiers would not wear uniform to have a more balanced view for new people walking into the corps. Last Easter we had the option to leave the ‘blue’ at home on the Saturday evening to attend a seeker friendly divisional meeting. Chick’s statement of a new person in his Pasadena congregation asking if the service was for the armed forces perhaps needs to make us think some more!
I know that while on my corps placement at Raynes Park, membership is very different there, and it is amazing to see such a healthy growing fellowship. Rick Warren (The Purpose Driven Church, pg 16) suggests, “Since the church is a living organism, it is natural for it to grow if it is healthy,” and that is what I saw in Raynes Park. I did not see some of the ‘distinctives’ of TSA but I did see people eager to worship God and to work out God’s mission, in a non-institutionalised environment. People did belong, believe and transformation happened, in people’s lives, which spilt out into the home, workplace, and community. Caution must be that as we move forward that those new things do not become a hindrance for the next generation. We must not try to create new traditions, but allow the Holy Spirit freedom to take and use each generation.
I feel passionate about the early church model (The Acts 2:42 Church; 2:42-47), not that we can step back into time but that we should take this and apply it into the context of our culture today. ‘They devoted themselves to the apostles’ teaching and to the fellowship, to the breaking of bread and to prayer. Everyone was filled with awe, and many wonders and miraculous signs were done by the apostles. All the believers were together and had everything in common. Selling their possessions and goods, they gave to any one as he had need. Everyday they continued to meet together in the temple courts. They broke bread in their homes and ate together with glad and sincere hearts, praising God and enjoying the favour of all the people. And the Lord added to their number daily those who were being saved.’ Then Chick’s statements would be lived out, as the focus would be ‘living’ Jesus in our lives.
Carol Skene
Yvonne
I believe if we are to be all God wants with regard to our postmodern world some of Chick Yuille’s points of transition are the reality of what we face and indeed negotiate as spiritual leaders. This involves great tension because the points on the left hand side of the list can generally speaking represent what is know, safe and traditional whereas the points on the right of the list can in a general sense represent the new, different, and perhaps even radical. We live in a postmodern world that God loves and longs to reach yet the reality is there are corps that are entrenched in old traditions and ways despite the God given openings, and challenges , that postmodernity offers us. The Believe, Behave, Belong versus the Belong, believe, behave demonstrates this so well.
I noted Chick’s comment that church today must be solid at the core. I think there are definitely non-negotiables e.g. keeping to the true gospel and not some watered down version.
Again really good comments. There seems always a tension within transition. I wonder if that tension actually is a good thing that maintains a level of accountability - whereas we run from that sense of tension perhaps to learn to celebrate it might be interesting.
Sorry top of head stuff!
test
Being clear about the non-negotiables is what is needed. If we do this, then we have the confidence to question some of the other stuff that we can get bound up in.
I also think that things wil differ according to settings. A Corps plant that I have involvment with only has one (recently-enrolled) soldier on the roll, however, there are scores of people who feel that they belong - that this is their church, even though some of them have not yet accepted christ as Saviour. They very much belong, do we really need to put what could be obstacles in the way for someone to belong - I would say not. Let's see what people are passionate about, get them involved - give them a job to do.
Invitation to incarnation and membership to discipleship are the two that stood out for me. We must be relevant to our current world. What was good in William Booth's time is not necessarily relevant today. It's fine to invite people along to the church and great if they come along, but quite often these days people don't see the need. I remember a friend of mine from the police saying that she didn't need God. Her life is fine as it is and therefore why does she need God? The only way to show some people that there is a 'fullness of life in Christ' is to live it - show them that they are missing something.
I think that membership to discipleship is the correct way to view things. It is vital to ensure someone's belief in Christianity rather than worry whether they join a particular denomination and this I think leads into the 'believe, behave, belong' attitude. In years gone by people grew up knowing smething of the Christian faith - this sadly isn't always the case today, so how can we expect someone to walk into a church declaring their faith when they haven't had an opportunity to learn in the first place? This is why it is important for us to be welcoming to anybody who walks into our corps. A sense of belonging is often the first stage for many, and once they've feel they belong they then feel comfortable to ask questions and this way they are more likely to learn and believe. In the meantime their 'behaviour' might not be all that some would want or expect in a chuch setting.
Working in a corps, I recognised the characteristics. I discovered in the last years that it may be easy to maintain what is left in the corps, but we are called to be missional. We made some difficult decisions over the last months to stop certain activities, because by maintaining them we did not fully reach our purpose. I am aware that some (church-) people disagree and look at this as unfaithfulness. The horizon I want to look at shows me an adventurous and dynamic church and that is possible if we prepare the way for that. I am particularly keen on being involved in peoples lives in their process of discipleship. The church and especially the SA is not about membership. It is a shame we (as church, Christians and SA) made so many mistakes on that point.
I agree on every point, although the metaphor of an open house is still to ‘passive’ to me. It still gives the idea of a static church instead of being a movement. As Jesus tells us that we are salt we need to spread in order to be functional and true to our calling and identity. We need to go, not the other way around!
I agree with the remark that it used to be believe, behave, belong. And I do believe that belonging comes first. But I am not sure what comes next. Do people respond in their behaviour or in their beliefs? Or do both naturally come in a mix with sometimes a significant and visible change in their behaviour and sometimes in their belief?
I think belonging comes first and church needs to be aware of their being and doing and whether this will be something that people want to belong to. I think most of the times people can not identify with church (-members) and therefore have difficulties to belong to that community.
I wonder what the starting point of belonging is. How do we belong to people who wouldn't come near to church?
The discussion until now has been focussing mainly on other people that enter into relationships with us. And by us I mean the church in general and TSA in particular. I agree with Mariska and most of the others that belonging should come first. I also believe that the rest will. follow if there is a healthy atmosphere of meeting each other and God in a real and significant way.
A more interesting question to me is how we as church folk commit ourselves to the wider committee. Do we belong to the community where we are or do we try to get other people to belong to us.
If we commit to the community and try to be present there in the light of Christ, I believe the church might be a lot messier but also a lot more relevant. Maybe the order then for us and other Christians could be:
Belong (to the church) - Believe/Behave - Belong (to the community)
Marc - I like that and hadn't thought of it in those terms. For the church to learn how to belong without compromise would be significant
For me the one that stood out for me was, planning to preparedness. I agree wholeheartedly with Chick when he says we need to have a clear vision, it is no good starting a new project which we feel will carry out God's mission if we have not taken the time to look clearly at it. We must make sure that it is God's plan not just ours. We need to listen firstly to God, how he feels about it, but also as leaders listen to others within our congregation as to what God has said to them about it, but we also must be prepared to stop if things do not work out as planned or if they are not reaching the mission they were set up for. This at times can be difficult to do if the corps or church do not want things to stop, I have had experience of this within my placement but know that we made the right decision at the time even though others did not agree.
I can identify with the Believe, Behave , Belong this is how it was when I was growing up. I strongly believe that this is now wrong, I feel more people come to faith because they feel they belong and are comfortable with church then move on to behave then believe. We cannot expect people to believe straight away if they have never been to a church before maybe never heard the gospel before. This I feel would be a false belief as it is something we need to learn about to truly believe. Also new people do not know what happens in church, what is right and wrong, so I feel it is very important for people to feel relaxed and happy so they will want to carry on attending. I know from experience that people who feel that they belong first will carry on to the next stage of believe, because they see the loving life of Jesus in the congregation who make them feel so at home.
I agree with a lot of the comments above about the need today to belong before you can hope for people to believe/behave.
I am challenged and encouraged by the young people who attend our mid week youth club. The majority of these kids are not churched kids and don’t have any Christian parental support. In fact a lot of these kids have real behavioural issues and struggle to engage in normal healthy relationships.
For over two years we have spent time with them simply getting to know then and showing them that we care and that we want to support and encourage them. Six months ago we felt that God’s spirit was prompting us to commence Youth Alpha which has since continued in a Bible study/cell group style setting. It is amazing to look in and see 12/13 year old lads holding a bible in their hands and discussing what it has to say.
If you had asked these kids two years ago to believe you wouldn’t have got very far with them, and the truth is their behaviour is still very questionable at times. However since they have developed a sense of belonging they are finally on the road to discovering a Christian faith for themselves.
I wonder if that speaks of the credibility of mission? There is something profound in your statement 'simply getting to know'. I guess the challenge then would be what motivates us to simply get to know - what if people do not respond to the way of living we represent? Do we still invest of ourselves in order to 'simply get' to know
Suzanne - missed your comment sorry!
"We must make sure that it is God's plan not just ours...." That is a key thought - how do we do that though?
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