Ecclesiology: The Mission Shaped Church (Steve Dutfield)
Discussion Point#2
Thornfield Baptist Church is featured (sorry the video is not yet available on the CD)
The minister speaks of 'no hidden agenda's' and the first question he asks of anyone "What can we do for you?"
When has TSA been guilty of hidden agenda's?
Are hidden agenda's ever acceptable?
posted by ETLnetwork at 7:41 AM
13 Comments:
TSA has been guilty of hidden agendas perhaps when people have been offered shelter, food, clothing and the underlying expectation is that they attend prayers or services.
I do not think that hidden agendas are acceptable. We are called to be transparent and exercise Christian integrity in all we do, and in our dealings with others. Furthermore, the world watches us and takes note. I also think that many people today are cynical, they feel duped and are suspicious of e.g. politicians, authorities many of whom have hidden agendas and misrepresent the truth. Consequently, as Kingdom people we need to be beyond reproach. For example, if we are going to do something that has a Christian element we need to say so right at the start and not introduce it at a later date on the unsuspecting. It comes back to being authentic.
Yvonne
test
Newbigin talked about pointing beyond what we do - I like that. Evangelism by the back door could be dangerous
Discussion 2 Mission Shaped Church
As Yvonne says hidden agendas never really work in the end , as they are not God honouring . Christ was quite straightforward in His dealings with non-believers . Yes, Jesus was careful how He dealt with the issue that He was the Messiah with some groups , but that was more to do with the timing of His ministry .However, there is a conflict that I sense with all of this.If we cannot get folk into a position in which they can experience God then are we also selling Him short ? Sandra my wife told me about her social placement at a Mens hostel . On a Wednesday morning tea was provided free if folk attended Morning prayers .This worked and of course was with an hidden agenda , however, is this wrong or not if someof these folks were saved. I think you can see I am not sure of what I think about this at this stage.
Chris Hall
I am unsure that I would consider TSA social action as being a hidden agenda to instigate salvation. People will be invited to attend prayers etc within our centres but they have freedom to accept or decline the invitation.
If our hearts are tune with God and our response is offering our hand to man, then does that not also infer to seeking to offer not just a better physical quality of life but also a spiritual quality.
I was perturbed not to find any mention of what TSA stood for when visiting a detox centre . . . that could be construed as a hidden agenda. I do not agree that our hands should be tied by local councils as to what we can portray in some of our centres; if that is the case then perhaps we should let some other organisation undertake the work.
TSA needs to be proactive in taking a stance in communities and not have to hide what makes us do what we do. I have seen some sort of 'mission statements' in other centres, which clearly points out who we are, and what our purpose is about.
Perhaps, I am thinking and feeling that as in the lecture of the 'emerging church' supports Christology first, followed by missiology . . . every part of my being is to see people enter into a relationship with Christ, but yet, even if they reject this, my love for God stirs within me that I must still support, care, and love that person.
TSA is firstly a Christian church and people should not be entering our buildings without recognising that, and in these days all should be displaying 'what we are about' and therefore there will be no hidden agenda.
I don't think I would support any hidden agenda's . . . and I can not think of any from Scripture. It seems to me acceptable to take opportunities to preach as Paul e.g. did in prison, and surely that would not be considered as him having a hidden agenda, rather a God given appointment. The jailor and his family were all saved!
I'm not sure when any of these comments were left. I know that Yvonne, Carol and Chris haven't been cadets for some time but anonymous may have only just left their comment!
I agree whole heartedly with Carol that we shouldn't compromise what we stand for just to get funding from different local governments. We shouldn't be ashamed of who we are and the council very often come to TSA for help because of our expertise in certain areas, so if they want to tap into that expertise they have to be prepared to take on the whole package!
As for when people come into our halls we need to be supportive, helpful and caring but ultimately if this is our desire (to help them) then surely we want what is best for them, and that is Jesus!!
I think over the years we have become very good at offering soup and soap but have forgotten how to give the salvation. This saddens me so much. Whenever someone comes into our building we provide the help and the support but then quite clearly tell them why we do all of this. We don't bible bash them we just say, if you want to know more about this then we are happy to talk to you. We do always ask if we can pray for them before they leave though.
More often than not they don't take us up on our offer, but sometimes they do. We are helping an alcoholic at the moment. He is doing really well, he went into an Army detox centre and we specifically asked him if they spoke to him about God. He said not directly, there were Christian posters around and you could speak to somebody if you wanted to, but nobody approached you. I asked him if their were chaplains there and he said there was, but they just hung around so that you could approach them if you wanted to speak. I think that's sad, the least they could do is be friendly and then the people there might want to approach them.
I am pleased to say that this gentleman has become a Christian now and is really enjoying the new life that he has been given. God has done some amazing things in his life and we are looking forward to see what else he has planned for him!
The local council in Dartford have approached us to help run a furniture project. We are seriously looking into this but we have been open and upfront with them and have told them that we will only work with them on the understanding that we are openly evangelical in our work. After all if you knew a doctor who could cure cancer, wouldn't you want to tell the cancer patient that you knew someone who could help them?
Let's not be ashamed about our God, he's changed my life for the better and I know that we wants to do the same for other people as well.
Tracey
What an encouraging story from Tracey and doesn't this just show how we need to stand up and be counted. Let's explain to people why we do as we do. It is important not to go 'OTT' and if someone chooses not to accept Christ then we should still help them all the same. There should be no hidden agendas. When we started our Brownie group last year we explained that as it was attached to the SA we were a church based pack. As such we have our parade services every 5 or 6 weeks and to some extent I have told parents and Brownies we 'expect' a good turnout at Church parade (bearing in mind that it is not always possible for everyone to be at each meeting). I have no qualms about saying this as we were 'up front' in the beginning. I sometimes think that we don't express our Christianity enough as we might offend others. At a previous corps there was a big debate whether or not we should have a Cross at the front of the hall. The argument against this was the fact that it might offend other groups who use the hall. Although we need to respect others opinions surely it is the SA hall and therefore in my opinion if we want a Cross put on display then we should. That way no one would be able to argue about hidden agendas - we would be clear in what we mean.
Thanks for your encouragement Sandra. I agree with you 100%. If we were to go into any other building knowing what the group/organisation stood for we would expect to see things around their building that communicated that. Do you think it is because some people are embarrassed about what we 'believe' in? I don't wish to get off the point here but do you think we have hidden our agendas so well that even some of our own people don't realise what we're all about anymore?
I have been thinking a lot about the soup-soup-salvation process. We more or less see this as a or the way of leading people to salvation. Could it be that SA is working with 'spiritual salvation' on the hidden agenda while helping someone physically? I haven't found the answer yet. I would say 'yes' if you expect something in return of that person. And I would say 'no' if you feel helping someone is part of the holistic concept of salvation.
I do worry more about selling the War Cry for example. The hidden agenda behind this is money. Letting people believe that we spend our money on projects involving poor people with no opportunities, while we spend it on paying the bills for our building is even a big lie. Further, the War Cry is used as a 'passport' to enter into a cafe or restaurant. That is another hidden agenda. So, yes, I certainly believe we make ourselves guilty of hidden agenda's. These were only a few.
I also need to add that I know the heart of people and if I strip the disformed way of selling the War Cry away, I would probably look into a heart that is full of love for other people, trying desperately to let people encounter God. It is a shame that some people nowadays cannot change this 'wrong' way of working.
I do not think hidden agenda's are acceptable. Kingdom values are about authenticy and honesty, not about hidden agenda's.
I sense that 'hidden agenda' is interpretated as hiding your identity. I think these are two different things. Of course, my identity determines my purpose in life, which could be hidden. But I think the intention of the 'hidden agenda' here is the question whether we expect something in return or when we only engage with people with a certain purpose.
I was interested in reading that when TSA first started its social outreach there were those who couldn't see the point and saw it all as a distratction from the work 'proper'! Makes me think that at it's roots soup, soap was salvation which is why it was criciticised.
As for the the War Cry I guess it is about individual approach. I used to see it as a means of being available rather than money - i would have made more money washing windscreens at the traffic lights!! But I know what you mean.
Thanks Mariska - great point
Hidden agendas are absolutely wrong and are not compliant with authenticity. We have nothing to be ashamed of.
I gues that we sometimes don't say what we think or lure people into christianity, because we don't always completely believe it ourselves or we think the other people do not have the potential (yet) to grasp the gospel truths.
I have to say that I feel ashamed about the moments that I hid my own identity in Christ just to be 'cool'
I also agree with Mariska with regards to our own hidden agenda with regards to funding and the War Cry.
A last remark to Chris' example with the men that had to go to morning devotions to get their food for free. I do believe that is wrong. I would actually say that it sounds like blackmail to me. Off course the intentions are right, but it is not authentic.
Authenticity and transparency are essential characteristics of our faith and should never be placed to one side. If this is true then hidden agendas, should never be a subject that needs to be raised, however we know that they have and to some extent still do exist within TSA.
You cannot get away from the fact that on occasions TSA has clearly put financial interests before kingdom gain. In a previous Corps that I attended the Prayer Room was not allowed a cross or any overtly religious posters etc due to the fact that the room was also going to be used to interview perspective clients for the Social programme and Council funding would not allow this. In this instance the demands of County Council came before the spiritual needs of the Corps and the spiritual needs of the perspective clients. Sadly I am sure that this issue was not an isolated case. However on a positive note I do believe that the TSA are now wiser in their dealings with so called ‘free’ funding.
TSA is at its best when it remains true to its original calling that is ‘to save souls, grow saints and serve suffering humanity’. We can do this without the need of hidden agendas.
I wonder where else we have succumbed to hidden agendas in terms of the outworking of church?
At what point do we stop being comfortable in our outreach to our communities. Is there a point where that expression of love stops if we can't see any measurable return on our investment into the community.
In other words do we stop, say a youth club, if no one starts to come on a Sunday - or is there another value that is being demonstrated.
A hidden agenda would usually answer that for us.
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