Missiology: Conversion (Martin Hill)
Discussion Point #1
Martin again talks about the three B's already referred to before. Believing, Behaving and Belonging. Martin also quotes John Westerhoff
"Conversion experiences may be sudden or gradual, dramatic or undramatic, emotional or intellectual, but they always involve a change in a person's thinking, feeling and willing - in short, in their total behaviour"To what degree do you agree/ disagree with the statement?
What role does an understanding of the three B's play in the process of conversion as understood by Westerhoff?
posted by ETLnetwork at 1:30 AM
10 Comments:
I had never given any deep thought to 'collective' conversion as Abraham's household . . . and even thinking of the jailor in the NT I suppose I had thought they all had been personally influenced. (How niave!)
Until last week, through this study and my prep for Sunday on Ruth - I had to stop and rethink how she took the religion of her mother-in-law Naomi. Ruth like many others in Scripture accepted someone elses God for herself which again made me consider the belonging before believing or behaving! There is no doubt in my mind that conversion is a process.
Within TSA I firmly believe that there is an importance of building relationships and involving people to give them a sense of belonging and from that there would be a pattern of behaviour seen and desired.
As I consider Paul's dramatic conversion experience I recalled all the first experience he had witnessed as he persecuted many with Christians. Therefore, I understand that the Holy Spirit is at work (convicting)long before the actual acceptance of belief. I certainly agree that however the conversion takes place there should evolve a change in total behaviour. Yet, I am mindful that when I gave my life fully to the Lord that I had adopted a certain pattern of 'expected' behaviour because of attending a church. Outward behaviour is very different from the inward transformation which can only happen when a relationship with Christ is experienced.
I can identify with Westerhoff as he outlines a major change that would be encountered; inwardlt through 'my thinking, feeling and willing' which would eventually also be seen outwardly. The overwhelming desire to become more like Christ became my all encompassing focus and this does not diminish but keeps growing deeper.
In this new relationship, there was a change within; as Martin Hill outlined 'a discovering of ourselves', which hit me quite forcibly. Consequently, Westerhoff's argument of a conversion experience (however it happens)speaks of this inward change - in short of 'total behaviour' suggests that this of course can only happen after the encounter with Christ.
I am beginning to wonder if we can get caught up too much with man-made church legalism but instead our focus should be to accept and love as Christ does and then we might see more people come into the Kingdom.
I would largely agree with this statement. I think true conversion involves and is evidenced by change in a person’s thinking, feeling and willing i.e. their total behaviour, they have become a new creation. Nonetheless, I believe that the outworking of this happens as an ongoing, lifelong process. Although a person has had a conversion experience it may take time for certain behaviours, thinking patterns etc to be transformed. I believe this transformation can often involve what seems like one step forward and three steps back. Whilst agreeing with this statement, I also think that there are some regular church goers (Belonging) who behave in religious ways (Behaving) but who may not have a personal faith in Christ (Believing).
Understanding of the three B’s plays a useful role in the process of conversion as understood by Westerhoff because for me it highlighted the strands of Believe and Behave and showed that they are interlinked. This helped me to see that the three B’s are not necessarily a process which progresses neatly from Believe, to Behave and then to Belong, but perhaps could also be viewed as more fluid/integrated/holistic. Yvonne
I guess it points to the debate that surrounds crisis or process. I've known those who testify to either. I've also know those who would be aghast at the suggestion that conversion could be anything but crisis.
Riddell in his book 'Thresholds...' talks about journey with regards to conversion. Which is helpful. Perhaps there is more crisis in process and more process in crisis than meets the eye!
Discussion Conversion
I broadly agree with the statement . I know that in our modern society that process may take longer with people . We often nowadays have folk who are spiritual tourists who may or may not get off the boat and stop to look around long enough to belong and then believe. However, I believe that in order to say we are are fully converted we need to accept that we need to change . Of course we will never be perfect in Gods eyes , but we need to constantly re-evaluate ourselves in light of our faith . I have a friend who was dramatically converted and became a Christian after a life of being an atheist. This person has difficulties believing that God is active in all different types of Churches and communities . My friend is almost an Holy Spirit junky and expects almost to be bowled over in the Spirit at every Church service. My friend has no time for traditional expressions of Church and dares to presume where God will be or not be . My friend is a fine person who's life has been been transformed by Christ , however, belief and belonging are nothing if we do not address our attitudes and our behaviours.Therefore I believe that if by the grace of God we are able to address our behaviour then we remain in the Grace of God. I also believe as well that we will sometimes fail as we are not perfect . However, Grace lets us know we are ill and helps us seek healing on a daily basis.
Chris Hall
In the main I agree with this statement. I have known people who have had dramatic conversions but for a lot of people it is a gradual process which links into the three 'B's'and that is why it is necessary to be accomodating to people who come into the church seeking. If we are judgemental about the way they behave and they 'don't come up to our standards' then we are never going to make that person feel welcome and they are less likely to believe that a life with Christ is worth knowing about.
Whether the conversion is dramatic or gradual I do think that a person's behaviour changes or should change!
This is a difficult one and I also know people who believe in both. I think there is a big difference though in being converted and nominal Christianity. I know lots of people who would call themselves Christians but never see the need to attend a Church. I have also known many Christians who call themselves just that but whose lives never reflect the glory of God.
Up until the age of 25 I would have classed myself as a Christian and I would have behaved in such a way because that was the behaviour I had been taught, but none of it meant anything to me until I was baptised by the Holy Spirit. When that happened it was immediate and I believe that still would have happened at 25 when I met the Christian lady who prayed for me whether I had gone to Church all my life like I had, or whether I had never stepped into a Church before because that experience was a life transforming experience for me. God changed my whole outlook on life and my understanding of what he had done for me. Prior to that I often wondered why it was that I gave up my whole weekend to wear myself out before going back to work on a Monday!
This happened to me and my husband at the same time and the knock on affect that it had at our home Corps at the time was huge and that was because people could see the change in our lives. We regularly had people knock on our front door saying that they wanted what we had, because they could see that they hadn't got it in their own lives. And for those people it was instant too.
I don't believe that God wants to give some people wonderful life changing testimonies to share and not others. I believe he wants to do the same for all of us but we just haven't had the chance to come across a Christian who knows how to introduce us to the Holy Spirit properly.
Lots of us are brought up in a Church/Corps where we are journeying with God but I'm sure those of you who have experienced a real tangible relationship with the Holy Spirit will agree with me that it was at that point in your life that you knew you were truly and properly converted.
Sometimes that comes through a crisis but that wasn't the case for me. It was just that I was fortunate enough to be in the right place at the right time and the person who prayed for me was willing to be obedient to God and take the opportunity that was given to her when God told her to pray for me.
I think it always boils down to the same thing....Holy living and that daily walk with the Lord!
I personally think that conversion is all what John Westerhoff says. And I do believe that conversion is an ungoing process. It never stops, as the journey towards God never stops. I would add 'acting'to the sentence that says: "...but they always involve a change in a person's thinking, feeling, willing AND ACTING. I know 'their total behaviour' refers to this as well, but acting to me is the very visible part of conversion, which somehow misses out if you only talk about a change in someone's thinking, feeling and willing. I think conversion changes someones acting (ore behaviour), whether this is dramatically or not, very sudden or gradually.
I think the understanding of the three B's does help me to understand my own spiritual growth and the growth of others. I do think that the three of them are always present in the process of conversion. I visualise them in a circle that repeats itself while moving forward into the future. Sometimes the awareness of belonging is very present, sometimes an awareness of growing in faith. The three B's move dynamically and in shape a persons spiritual growth.
John Westerhoff talks about change in total behaviour. This is absolutely true and an interesting thought, although I would like to place an extra thought here.
Thinking, feeling and willing are not neccesary always visible. The things I want, feel or think are not always congruous with the way I behave.
I believe that conversion in feeling, thinking and willing should be visible in our behaviour, but this can take time. Chris' friend has been converted quite dramatically, (look at the second comment) but his behaviour is still under revision as is the case with all our behaviour.
The sense of belonging to a group of people that call themselves followers of Jesus, Children of God, the Church or the Salvation Army might come after believing and behaving, but I believe that is is my duty and privilege to let people know that they always belong. They might not think so, but I believe God thinks so.
I agree with John Westerhoffs statement that when conversion has happened there is a change in a person's behaviour. Whatever way a person experiences conversion it so I that for some people conversion is harder to deal with than others. What I mean by this is sometimes it is hard to live the new life that conversion brings if we do not change our behaviour from our old life. If we still carry on with our old ways then we will not be moving on totrying to be like Jesus. This is when I feel the element of belonging comes into play. When we include and make feel welcome those who are new to faith they can learn from others how they should live. Thus the two elements of behaving and belonging go side by side I feel. This will then go a long way to helping people with their believing when they have examples to follow that our for good rather than bad.
behaving and belonging going side by side is interesting. I wonder if by implication though whether people only feel they belong if they behave a certain way. Exploring belonging beyond that would no doubt be of interest.
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